Building a pool...best control manufacturer for HA?

I'm just at the beginning of the process of building a pool, and one of the questions is which pool controller company to go with.

I've seen some mention of Jandy here in the forums, but elsewhere HA people seem to be loving Pentair (they even have an iPhone app!).

The pool company is pushing Hayward, but their website doesn't even mention computer-based automation anywhere that I can find.

I have an Insteon-based setup with Indigo (obviously) and would like to integrate the pool functions as much as possible, rather than fooling with the dedicated pool controller remotes that they offer.

Any advice on which manufacturer is best for HA/Insteon?

Thanks,
John

I'm not familiar with the Jandy but I'm happy with my Pentair system. I have written perl scripts which integrate its major features with Indigo. See this thread: http://www.perceptiveautomation.com/php ... php?t=4961

Read the manual for the iLink adaptor to get an idea what commands are available: http://www.pentairpool.com/pdfs/i-LinkUG.pdf

I did that before their iPhone app was available... their new app should be an easier way to go now, but I like having it hooked into Indigo as this lets me do other things, for example sending me a text message when the spa is fully heated up.

Another thing you might look into is an automated pH/ORP controller (I have the CAT2000 which has an rs232 port - which also talks to indigo). Unless you enjoy the constant chemistry ritual, these things are a godsend. Just dump your liquid chlorine and acid solutions into feeder tanks and forget about it for a couple months. You just get perfect water all the time with no chlorine smell, and no itchy eyes/skin ever. Indigo sends me alerts when its time to refill the tanks.

Besides the automation features, I think the pentair controller is pretty well designed. The control panel is one box with one compartment for the circuit breakers and another for the low voltage wiring. The relays are nicely organized and everything is modular and configurable. If you're doing a spa also consider their variable speed (intelliflo) pump for the jets.

The automated chemistry thing sounds heavenly. Who makes it? Does it work with salt based chlorine systems?

This is the one I have: http://www.chemauto.com/products/cat2000.htm

Here is another choice that I almost went with, until my pool builder steered me to the CAT: http://www.sbcontrol.com/ch250.htm

I'll post some pics of my installation some time. It was not hard and actually rather fun to get it all hooked up.

Another thing I forgot to mention is that having closed-loop chlorine control means you do not need Cyanuric acid (aka stabilizer). You only use sodium hypochlorite. This has the benefit of achieving the same sanitizing power at a lower concentration of free chlorine.

Total alkalinity (as a pH stabilizer) also becomes much less important because pH is actively regulated.

Note there are some new sensors that measure free chlorine (in PPM). This is NOT what you want. ORP is the way to go - it's like a total measure of chlorine effectiveness.

Extremely cool. It says "trade price $1800". Did you buy it directly from them, and is that what you paid?

I'd like to see some pics when you have time. Who integrated it into your system? A plumber or the pool contractor? Or is that something you can do yourself?

Do you think the other product is worth looking at or are the reasons you got this one convincing?

Basically this eliminates most if not all of what one pays a pool service for. Do you also have a pool service or do you do the rest yourself? Are you in an all year round climate? I'm in Maryland, and the pool is closed from October-November to May, so there is some work to do to close and open it.

Extremely cool. It says "trade price $1800". Did you buy it directly from them, and is that what you paid?

I paid a little less but prices might have changed. Note that you want the "professional" package which includes the sensors and flow bypass assembly mounted on a backboard. You're going to need all that stuff. You are also going to need a weatherproof place to install it.

The other thing you are going to need is the chemical feeder pumps and holding tanks (2ea). The pumps are $250-300ea, and the tank can just be a 5 gal paint bucket with a lid, or you can opt for something with a removable screw top which is what I did. Stenner sells a bundle which includes the pump and a 15(?) gal holding tank.

I'd like to see some pics when you have time. Who integrated it into your system? A plumber or the pool contractor? Or is that something you can do yourself?

That's just a question of how handy you are but if you're comfortable with basic plumbing and electric it's perfectly DIYable. The only special tool required is a '1/4" NTP tap' - the hardware store didn't have these but you can order them for $10. You will have to drill and tap into your existing PVC to attach the bypass line and while this might be a little scary it is actually very easy. Just practice on a scrap before you do the real deal.

Do you think the other product is worth looking at or are the reasons you got this one convincing?

As far as the electronics and sensor elements go, it's not rocket science and this technology has been in use in commercial pools for a long time. So I can't imagine there's much difference in terms of ongoing operation. I chose on the advice of my pool builder who has used both and said he finds the setup UI on the CAT to be better. I also think the flow/sensor assembly that comes with the CAT pro package is quite elegant, saving some install work and making maintenance easier.

Basically this eliminates most if not all of what one pays a pool service for. Do you also have a pool service or do you do the rest yourself? Are you in an all year round climate? I'm in Maryland, and the pool is closed from October-November to May, so there is some work to do to close and open it.

I'm in california and this is for an in-ground spa. I don't need a pool service - the entirety of my maintenance routine is:

- once a month brush and scoop out leaves (I don't get much).
- when indigo sends me a low ORP alert, add $3 worth of hypochlorite (about once a month in the summer, every two months in winter).
- when adding chlorine, also top up the acid (chlorine always runs down first).

I don't need any other chemicals and can't remember the last time I did a manual Cl/pH test.

For a pool you would still need to brush your plaster but you will find with the controller that algae and other chemistry crises do not happen. "shock treatment" is only needed because humans screw up from time to time. As long as the ORP is maintained at 650+ algae can not get established.

Really helpful, thanks.

I didn't answer your question about salt-based chlorine systems - I don't know on that one but here are a couple things to look into:

- Does the salinity affect the ORP/pH readings, or the longevity of the sensors? It changes the conductivity of the water and this may have an effect. I don't know - ask the controller vendor.

- The controller has both 110VAC and contact closure outputs so it could activate a salt->chlorine converter just as readily as a feeder pump.

- Salt based chlorinators are relatively slow, thus requiring a perhaps longer minimum filter cycle than you would otherwise need. If you switch to liquid chlorine this is no longer a limiting factor and you may be able to reduce your filtering time and save some electricity.

- I'm sure there are other pros and cons to salt water systems that I'm not appreciating here... I'm just not real familiar with them.

SeanAdams,

I am really interested in your Pentair setup. I installed an intelliflo and the EasyTouch control system.

Indigo controls waterfalls, lights, etc. and use Iphone, Ipod for Indigo and Itunes. Would like to integrate the Pool/Spa equipment into Indigo if possible. I don't care much for the Pentair logic. Not very flexible and their Intellitouch panel is just geared for the Windows world.

I also like the PH control idea. Although I have a salt water pentair chlorinator, I have to constantly battle PH. Can you share some detail on monitor, tank, pump ?

I am not an automation guru just a novice.

Thanks for your time.

SeanAdams,

I am really interested in your Pentair setup. I installed an intelliflo and the EasyTouch control system.

Indigo controls waterfalls, lights, etc. and use Iphone, Ipod for Indigo and Itunes. Would like to integrate the Pool/Spa equipment into Indigo if possible. I don't care much for the Pentair logic. Not very flexible and their Intellitouch panel is just geared for the Windows world.

To go the next step for now requires writing custom software. I can provide you with a starting point if you're interested but it's not plug & play. You should look into their new iPhone app too - I don't know anything about it.

I also like the PH control idea. Although I have a salt water pentair chlorinator, I have to constantly battle PH. Can you share some detail on monitor, tank, pump ?

Chemtrol does make a ph-only controller, but the cost savings when you consider the whole package is not that much by omitting the ORP feature. You still need the same install work.

One thing you might try in general though, is to add some sodium bicarbonate (baking soda). This will initially raise the pH and will need to be countered immediately with muriatic acid. However, once you have done this a few times the "total alkalinty" of the water should go up, and this has a stabilizing effect on the pH level. I don't really grok the chemistry of it and I don't personally need to do that, but I have been told that it helps. 6-in-1 test strips will measure total alkalinity.

If you are having trouble keeping pH stable then the controller would be a good investment, because poor control will rapidly degrade your plaster and you'll run into a much larger expense when that has to be redone. You will also need less chlorine. I should get a commission or something...

The Pentair Iphone app requires the InteliTouch controller, a PC running their software. Don't really want a PC and to upgrade from an EasyTouch to a InteliTouch controller. Probably to complicated for me to tackle at this time for the gain in convenience. Pentair has a simple wireless handheld to turn the Spa on/Off that fits with the Easytouch controller.

I noticed that Pentair is now selling a PH monitor system for $1000 and the pump and tank are another $500. I am not really interested in automating the chemical side. Thanks for the info on the total alkalinity. Think that should help the PH stability.

As promised here are some pictures and more info about my CAT2000 installation:

http://www.seanadams.com/ha/cat2000/