Potential Indigo user with (way too many) questions

Hello everyone,

Friend from Apple suggested I look into Indigo since I'm not very happy with my ISY994i setup. I considered Indigo a while back when deciding on a system but chose the ISY because it was a small net connected appliance that used very little power and didn't want to dedicate a Mac to home automation. Two years later and I'm rethinking my decision. I have never fully been able to wrap my head around their "state machine" approach to programming and it has been a struggle. Some of the things I want to do is too difficult for me and getting help sometimes makes me feel an idiot. Those people are way smarter than me. This community seems much more evolved and robust.

So I want to run my some questions about my current setup and my future goals with you all and see if I should go down this road.

About me and my abilities.
I have managed to hack my way thru the ISY and surprisingly got Apache working on a raspberry Pi using bash as a CGI engine to translate between some devices. However, I'll be honest: I'm more of a person who can take some existing code and bend it to my will rather than engineer something from the ground up (the Arduino mentioned below was really my first something from scratch and even then I had some help). I know AppleScript some and no Python... willing to learn.

Current system:
Running an ISY994i Pro with about 20 to 30 (varies during Christmas) insteon devices. All dual band:
(1) 240V Switch (Pool pump), (3) inline dimmers, (1) micro dimmer, (4) dual outlets, (3) single outlets, (1) EZIO8 running various valves (pool equipment) and a couple voltage inputs (for heater), (1) inline on-off, (2) Toggle Link on-off, (2) KPL's, (8) Lamp Link outlets, (1) 1200W Toggle Link, (3) outdoor outlets. Orchestrated MobiLinc Pro for iOS. (I know I'm missing something)...

My current system can run things as simply as on/off with a KPL (running programs) or thru the iOS app or scened (a couple toggle links linked together for some outdoor lights) to incredibly complex (the pool equipment).

I have the usual programs that turn on outdoor lights with a schedule (dusk to dawn), to the more complex: pool equipment that checks valve states, turns on things in certain orders, KPL buttons that have multiple purposes based on what part of the pool system is on or off. I even push temps into the ISY so that it can determine how long to run the pool pump for circulation based on the days temps (and even have freeze protection programs to run it as well).


Why I want to switch.
Still struggling with the ISY's state programming and the JAVA interface it is extremely difficult to follow logic when you have to have 3, 4 or 5 different programs to accomplish one thing. You can never look at programs more than one at a time and its hard to debug the flow with this limitation. So there's one of my huge problems.... I can get confused easily (parents dropped me on my head way too much).

Secondly, I have been wanting to expand my systems capabilities by removing the EZIO8 (horrible product that never reports back correctly the correct state). I want to replace them with these WEB CONTROL relays I have that allow me to issue a HTTP GET URL and change a relay state. That I can do now, but I can't poll the device to get its state without an intermediary device like a raspberry P... and that was a struggle... I hacked at my Pi until it gave in. I have some Dallas 1-Wire temp probes installed in the pool plumbing to get water temp readings, which I can use with the WEB CONTROL or an arduino so that I can have better control over the heating of the spa.

I want to install a few PIRs that run with say an Arduino that can push its state into the Indigo so that the Indigo can do (whatever).

I'd like to look into Beacons as occupancy solution as PIR's are only good for motion but not occupancy.

The ISY has a REST interface for controlling and pushing or pulling variables into it. Can I do this with Indigo?

Can I have the Indigo push out a URL to the WEB CONTROL (or arduino) thru a program?

Can the Indigo poll a network device and save that info in Indigo?

Can I create virtual device that behaves like a real insteon switch? (Example would be one of the relays on the Web Control) and then turn it on and off thru the interface or the iOS app just like a regular insteon device? It has to act as just another switch.

Can I create a limited use dashboard to use on a iPad or iPhone to use a wall-mounted virtual KPL's? (Right now I can only turn on my landscape lighting thru my phone because I have run out of room on my KPL's).

Has anyone gotten this to work with HomeKit (thru Home Bridge)?

Can device and program names be nested and or made into human readable names for devices like iOS or a dashboard?

Can I have a reduced set of "device" control on iOS for my Dad? It will be his primary way of controlling things. Don't want him being confused by all the programs or behind the scene stuff when it comes to control.

One thing I'll say about the ISY is that its bullet-proof (and Dad proof)... It works 24/7 and never needs rebooting. It just has to work. How stable is Indigo? I really don't do a lot of new stuff with my current solution as well 1) it works with what I have and 2) I have hit a wall with the other things I want to do.

One of the things I like about the ISY is that I like to keep control within my network - I don't want any cloud service involved with my home. If accessing Indigo thru the web or thru an iOS app, is anything going thru a third party or is it direct? (I can punch holes thru my router to allow external access)... is the communication secure? SSL? HTTPS? Can I install my own certs?

I posted a question in another sub-forum about running the PLM at a great distance but I'll look for my answer there.

I have one more question: I built my first Arduino that is installed at the community gate. It basically detects which gate is open and then pushes that gates state back to a Raspberry Pi. The Pi then tells my Synology Surveillance station to start recording on certain cameras. When the gate closes, it tells the recording to stop (it also triggers some massive LED floodlights aimed at the back end of cars to illuminate the plates). It also reports back the temp of the equipment box as well. That gave me an idea - can I use the Indigo to handle this "translation" between my Arduino and the Synology instead of using a Pi? Because I do want to have more sensors around the exterior of the house that do similar things and it would be cool if I could use Indigo as the backend.

I haven't downloaded the software trial yet as I have to carve out time to test it and make it work (and buy a new Mac). I figure I'll run both systems concurrently (moving a few devices at a time to Indigo and get them behaving the same way), until I unplug the ISY.

Thanks for your time and I hope I wasn't too verbose or obscure. I look forward to your feedback and hopefully joining the community.

Lots of questions; I can help with some of them;

I want to install a few PIRs that run with say an Arduino that can push its state into the Indigo so that the Indigo can do (whatever).

I'd use the Z-wave multisensors through a Z-stick for PIR and/or glass break detection. The Z-wave PIRs seem to be a lot more reliable than the Insteon or X10 ones I have used in the past and most send Temperature/humidity/light level data back to Indigo as well.

I'd like to look into Beacons as occupancy solution as PIR's are only good for motion but not occupancy.

I'm using Karl's third party PiBeacon presence detection plugin and it works very well for auto setting and clearing the security state of the house by detecting specific XYFindit Tiles, a fitbit, and an android phone... IPhones , not so much; Apple went waaaay overboard on their security and keep randomly changing everything that could allow a third party to identify a specific phone. The plucin uses up to 20 Raspberry rPIs, and I'm told that with enough of them, you can narrow down occupancy to a single room, but I've never tried.

Can I create virtual device that behaves like a real insteon switch? (Example would be one of the relays on the Web Control) and then turn it on and off thru the interface or the iOS app just like a regular insteon device? It has to act as just another switch.

Indigo variable values can be modified on and off or any other custom states from the web/iOS iinterface control pages, triggered by other changes in devices or variables, or in response to schedules; Case in point, my "HouseState" variable transitions changes to "Away" when the last validated piBeacon becomes expired (does not report for 2 minutes) and to "Home" whenever the first vaild PiBeacon comes in range. The state can also be seen and toggled manually by tapping an Icon on the "Home Control" control page accessible (With Authentication) through a web browser or Indigo Touch App. If a PIR signals, door opens, or the magnetic driveway senson triggers when the state is Away, Indigo sends a push alert to both me and my brother.

Can I create a limited use dashboard to use on a iPad or iPhone to use a wall-mounted virtual KPL's? (Right now I can only turn on my landscape lighting thru my phone because I have run out of room on my KPL's).

You can define as many different control pages as you like, put them into separate folders, and then use something like Kiosk pro software on an IPad or IPhone tp restrict access to one specfic folder; at my mother's house where we use Indigo for yard lights and monitoring the animals at the barn, I installed the free version of Kiosk pro on her IPad and set it to ONLY go to a folder which has a control page for each of the 4 external security cameras and one which shows all the yard and barn lights on a google earth image of the yard. I didn't lock the IPad to only use Kiosk because she uses it for email, shopping lists and the like as well, but if the pad (or a much cheaper droid for example) were to be used for nothing else this could easily be done. As it is, it's only 2 taps away from looking at the stall camera to see if the horses have been fed or checking if the feed room light was left on in then barn, and one more tap to turn it off.

One of the things I like about the ISY is that I like to keep control within my network - I don't want any cloud service involved with my home. If accessing Indigo thru the web or thru an iOS app, is anything going thru a third party or is it direct? (I can punch holes thru my router to allow external access)... is the communication secure? SSL? HTTPS? Can I install my own certs?

Everything in Indigo is local and direct UNLESS you explicitly set up and pay (a fairly trivial fee) for their "Prism Reflector" service... Rumors are that at the next major release, the reflector will be part of the base price, but currently I keep everything on our local network hidden and simply punch through with a VPN when required. Even on the local network, the Indigo Server has an option (which we use) to require name/password authentication, so to get to Indigo from work, I have to log in twice (although I admit, I do use the keychain to automate it on the IPhone.

The rest, I think others can probably help you better with more specifics... or you might want to look at the "success Stories and Kudos" thread for some of the really esoteric hoops Indigo can jump through.

You and I sound like we have the same preferences, approximate skill levels, and degrees of patience in futzing around with code. If anything, yours sound slightly higher than mine.

So I'll open with a blanket statement that I think you'll find Indigo refreshing and that it will do what you need more simply and elegantly than your previous solution. But specifically:

Can I have the Indigo push out a URL to the WEB CONTROL (or arduino) thru a program?

Easily. So easily. It can trigger a shell script, or you can use the URL plugin.

Can the Indigo poll a network device and save that info in Indigo?

This depends on what you mean by "poll" and how the device responds. But here's the short version: Indigo can make the Mac send a curl command to anything, and the Mac can tell Indigo what the response was.

Can I create virtual device that behaves like a real insteon switch? (Example would be one of the relays on the Web Control) and then turn it on and off thru the interface or the iOS app just like a regular insteon device? It has to act as just another switch.

This is a spot where my skill is reduced, as I'm still getting my head around Indigo's Virtual Devices. My initial thought is to have this managed via an Indigo variable, but then again, depending on what exactly the relay is and how it's controlled, there may be a plugin that can control it directly!

Can I create a limited use dashboard to use on a iPad or iPhone to use a wall-mounted virtual KPL's? (Right now I can only turn on my landscape lighting thru my phone because I have run out of room on my KPL's).

YES! You're describing a Control Page. Indigo offers you the ability to create as many of these as you need.

Has anyone gotten this to work with HomeKit (thru Home Bridge)?

Yes! So, so easy to do. Instructions are in these forums.

Can device and program names be nested and or made into human readable names for devices like iOS or a dashboard?

Afraid I don't quite know what you want here. Maybe you mean "can I have a control page for just the dining room devices?" Yes. Can you organize devices arbitrarily by folder? Yes.

Can I have a reduced set of "device" control on iOS for my Dad? It will be his primary way of controlling things. Don't want him being confused by all the programs or behind the scene stuff when it comes to control.

Absolutely! I have a control page (one of many) for my wife's old iPod Touch that has exactly ONE switch on it, to turn on and off the bedroom lights.

Oh and I use Home Remote to manage some presence through beacons. No RasPI required.

[jay (support)]

I want to install a few PIRs that run with say an Arduino that can push its state into the Indigo so that the Indigo can do (whatever).

As mentioned earlier, Z-Wave motion sensors are significantly more reliable than Insteon sensors. Z-Wave also doesn't have the same kind of collision issues that Insteon has and is generally faster. You can easily use both Insteon and Z-Wave (both Matt and I do as do others here).

I'd like to look into Beacons as occupancy solution as PIR's are only good for motion but not occupancy.

Several different 3rd party solutions here.

The ISY has a REST interface for controlling and pushing or pulling variables into it. Can I do this with Indigo?

Indigo has a REST interface as well, but also has (as you mention) a robust Python-based API. Anything you can do in Python (which is basically everything) you can do in Indigo. In scripts and/or in plugins depending on you're need.

Can I have the Indigo push out a URL to the WEB CONTROL (or arduino) thru a program?

Easily. There's a relatively new plugin that deals with URLS, but a very simple Python script can do a GET/POST to a URL and save the result in a variable (or even parse out what you need if the reply is complex).

Can the Indigo poll a network device and save that info in Indigo?

Yes - see above.

Can I create virtual device that behaves like a real insteon switch? (Example would be one of the relays on the Web Control) and then turn it on and off thru the interface or the iOS app just like a regular insteon device? It has to act as just another switch.

A little background on how Indigo works: Indigo defines some high-level things: devices, triggers (events), schedules (scheduled events), action groups (reusable collections of actions), control pages (custom UI), and variables (permanently stored bits of information). In terms of devices, Indigo has built-in support for: on/off (relay), dimmers, thermostats, sprinklers, I/O devices, sensors, etc. These are abstractions so that the underlying technology is irrelevant. A dimmer is a dimmer, regardless of whether it's an Insteon dimmer or a Z-Wave dimmer. We support technology specific features of the various protocols (Insteon linking, Z-Wave associations, etc) but you don't have to use them for the majority of uses.

So, to answer your question, yes, you can create a virtual device that is basically a generic on/off device but the implementation of the on/off commands and status you implement yourself (send the ON URL to the device, send the OFF URL to the device, query status and stick it into a variable which the virtual device uses as it's "state"). Depending on your use, however, it may be easier to skip the virtual device and just use action groups directly and use the variable directly for status. It really depends on the specific use-case.

Can I create a limited use dashboard to use on a iPad or iPhone to use a wall-mounted virtual KPL's? (Right now I can only turn on my landscape lighting thru my phone because I have run out of room on my KPL's).

Yes - see control pages for details. Note: depending on how hidden/locked down you want your control pages to be, Indigo Touch for iOS may be good enough for you: it will always launch back to the last page you were using.

Has anyone gotten this to work with HomeKit (thru Home Bridge)?

Yes - while we can't directly support HomeKit because of Apple's licensing, one of our users has done a bunch of work to make Homebridge play very well with Indigo.

Can device and program names be nested and or made into human readable names for devices like iOS or a dashboard?

I'm not really following you here, and I suspect it's because your experience with the ISY has you thinking in terms of how it implements things. Indigo works very differently than the ISY, so some things that you percieve as issues with the ISY are in fact non sequiturs in Indigo because of the difference in approach.

Can I have a reduced set of "device" control on iOS for my Dad? It will be his primary way of controlling things. Don't want him being confused by all the programs or behind the scene stuff when it comes to control.

Yep, control pages.

One thing I'll say about the ISY is that its bullet-proof (and Dad proof)... It works 24/7 and never needs rebooting. It just has to work. How stable is Indigo? I really don't do a lot of new stuff with my current solution as well 1) it works with what I have and 2) I have hit a wall with the other things I want to do.

We believe we're very reliable, but remember that we don't control the entire hardware/software stack, just the software side. It's further complicated because the hardware is a general purpose computer and as such is susceptible to OS/hardware stability. Having said that, a fairly large number of users us Indigo on (sometimes dedicated) Mac minis and they run for months without a reboot (if they're on a UPS that is).

One of the things I like about the ISY is that I like to keep control within my network - I don't want any cloud service involved with my home. If accessing Indigo thru the web or thru an iOS app, is anything going thru a third party or is it direct? (I can punch holes thru my router to allow external access)... is the communication secure? SSL? HTTPS? Can I install my own certs?

As mentioned above, Indigo does not require a connection outside of the network. The optional reflector service makes it easy to get secure remote access to your system without router configuration or adding certs. If, however, you want to do those things yourself you can.

I posted a question in another sub-forum about running the PLM at a great distance but I'll look for my answer there.

Check there for my reply.

I have one more question: I built my first Arduino that is installed at the community gate. It basically detects which gate is open and then pushes that gates state back to a Raspberry Pi. The Pi then tells my Synology Surveillance station to start recording on certain cameras. When the gate closes, it tells the recording to stop (it also triggers some massive LED floodlights aimed at the back end of cars to illuminate the plates). It also reports back the temp of the equipment box as well. That gave me an idea - can I use the Indigo to handle this "translation" between my Arduino and the Synology instead of using a Pi? Because I do want to have more sensors around the exterior of the house that do similar things and it would be cool if I could use Indigo as the backend.

There are a variety of ways to accomplish this - it's definitely doable.

I haven't downloaded the software trial yet as I have to carve out time to test it and make it work (and buy a new Mac). I figure I'll run both systems concurrently (moving a few devices at a time to Indigo and get them behaving the same way), until I unplug the ISY.

The thing with DIY stuff is that all solutions take their own approach to automation. The best way to get a feel for a product is to just start trying stuff. You can spend a lot of time searching the forums, etc., but nothing really compares to just using the software. You don't even have to use it with real devices at first - the sample DB comes with some devices predefined and that would allow you to test out features. So starting the trial is definitely something I would encourage since there is no better learning tool than hands on experience.

Finally, you should check out the ISY Bridge open source plugin - it may allow you to control your existing ISY and some devices with Indigo without having to have the PLM directly attached. It doesn't support all device types, but it may work well enough to help you transition from the ISY to Indigo. And it certainly would allow you to do some reasonably good learning/testing of Indigo during the trial period. The only thing is that the original author open sourced the plugin and is no longer doing anything with it. We fixed a couple of issues when he first open sourced it, but have done nothing with it since. So, honestly, I don't know if it still works or not.

Thanks everyone for your really insightful answers. Lots of YES with examples. Already this community is one I want to be part of.

I think most of my answers have been answered.

Some clarifications:

What I meant by human readable names. I'll give my example using the ISY since that is what I have now. I have devices buried in folders based on location (Front Yard, Back Yard, Pool, Great Room, etc). the devices within are named things like Patio.Window.L or GreatRoom.UpperShelf.LandscapeLight etc. You get the idea - sort of a heriarchy buried in the name. Works great in the backend environment for programming and such but lets face it - the names are awful... NOT HUMAN. So it's no wonder that when i open up my notification widget for MobiLinc to turn on or off a device - that crap name is what I see. Fine for me - bad for Dad. I asked the developer to be able to have a "nice name" or custom name for a device but it never happened. Hence my asking if the forward interface (like the iOS app or control pages can be programmed with a better name). This would help with SIRI too if I went do the HomeBridge rabbit hole. Unless I have been thinking about this all wrong.

About PIR's. I got some suggestions about using the Z-Wave PIR's mentioned above over the Insteon ones. While I would agree that one would be better, I don't want to do anything with Z-Wave at this point and I was looking to go totally 3rd party DIY route using an Arduino and/or Pi route and push that into Indigo. And I think that the Arduino plugin I saw mentioned might be the answer (although that uses polling where I would rather push the changes into Indigo rather than waiting for the Plugin to ask about a state change). But it looks like all that you guys said - its all doable.

I'm very excited. Don't think I'll be doing this until I get a new (used) Mac Mini and a new PLM and run new lines from the panel. Might be a couple months but I think this is where I want to be. (I accidentally requested a demo serial thinking it would start when I first used it but alas it's from the time it's issued).

Again, thanks. SO helpful you all!

Garrett

Matt/Jay will happily extend your license (or give you a new longer one) based on this thread.


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What I meant by human readable names. I'll give my example using the ISY since that is what I have now. I have devices buried in folders based on location (Front Yard, Back Yard, Pool, Great Room, etc). the devices within are named things like Patio.Window.L or GreatRoom.UpperShelf.LandscapeLight etc. You get the idea - sort of a heriarchy buried in the name. Works great in the backend environment for programming and such but lets face it - the names are awful... NOT HUMAN. So it's no wonder that when i open up my notification widget for MobiLinc to turn on or off a device - that crap name is what I see. Fine for me - bad for Dad. I asked the developer to be able to have a "nice name" or custom name for a device but it never happened. Hence my asking if the forward interface (like the iOS app or control pages can be programmed with a better name). This would help with SIRI too if I went do the HomeBridge rabbit hole. Unless I have been thinking about this all wrong.

This is what control pages do; Each Control page is a collection of Images/buttons/icons/text boxes that you have complete freedom to set up. Every control is tied to a device and has a caption that is totally independent. You can have as many controls (on the same or different pages) all pointing to the same device; When you change one or Indigo changes the device, they all update themselves automatically(no scene hoops to jump thorough like with the KPL buttons). And since you can make as many control pages as you want, duplicate and modify similar ones that you just want to present differently and organize them in folders, You can, for example, take your English labeled Living room control page, dup it, change it's captions to Spanish, and put it in your "Aquí español" folder ... Or strip out all the stereo and thermostat and motion sensor stuff and drop it into the "Dad" folder.

About PIR's. I got some suggestions about using the Z-Wave PIR's mentioned above over the Insteon ones. While I would agree that one would be better, I don't want to do anything with Z-Wave at this point and I was looking to go totally 3rd party DIY route using an Arduino and/or Pi route and push that into Indigo. And I think that the Arduino plugin I saw mentioned might be the answer (although that uses polling where I would rather push the changes into Indigo rather than waiting for the Plugin to ask about a state change). But it looks like all that you guys said - its all doable.

I'm using the rPi through the PiBeacon (by the same guy who does the Arduino plugin) to do my doors, which came prewired with magnetic reed switches when I bought the house. I'm only using 4 of the 20 or so GPIOs available on the rPi3, but the pi catches the contact closure in real time and passes the info on the the plugin pretty much instantly; The control page typically changes state in less than a second, and I've never seen it take more than 2; In fact, the trip when a door opens and closes is almost too fast... until I put a delay on letting the state update to closed, it was real easy to miss the fact that the door opened and closed 5 seconds later unless I was actually watching for it or checked the log.

The human readable names thing is not a worry in Indigo.

You can organize devices in folders based on whatever you want--the folders could be "Insteon Devices" and "Serial devices" or "Front Yard" "Third sub basement" or even "White plastic housings" and "Black Plastic housings". More to the point you could have folders named "DAD'S STUFF" and "STAY OUT OF THIS FOLDER DAD"

ANY device, be it Zwave, Insteon, serial, iTunes, or even virtual, could be put in ANY one of those folders. Note the one though--can't put a device in 2 folders!

And you can make a device have any name you want. Sensible names like "Dining room lamp" would be a good idea if you're intent on Home Bridge.

Thanks for the tips on naming conventions and the Pi stuff. Have my work cutout for me now...

The human readable names thing is not a worry in Indigo.

You can organize devices in folders based on whatever you want--the folders could be "Insteon Devices" and "Serial devices" or "Front Yard" "Third sub basement" or even "White plastic housings" and "Black Plastic housings". More to the point you could have folders named "DAD'S STUFF" and "STAY OUT OF THIS FOLDER DAD"

ANY device, be it Zwave, Insteon, serial, iTunes, or even virtual, could be put in ANY one of those folders. Note the one though--can't put a device in 2 folders!

And you can make a device have any name you want. Sensible names like "Dining room lamp" would be a good idea if you're intent on Home Bridge.

And\ to be clear, while each DEVICE must have a unique name and reside in a unique folder, you may create as many CONTROLS on as many Control pages as you want (until you run out of disk space on the server, of course), And each of those controls can have the same or different labels/shapes/attributes etc as you can draw or download from all the examples on this forum or the web..

Awesome.